Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

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Chilon
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:10 pm

Every previous system I've ever looked at (AD&D, 3.5, PF1, Shadowrun) very quickly grabbed my interest. Within an hour or two, I was excited about the system, and had little to no trouble finding things that I wanted to play. After a week of looking through the PF2 CRB, my reaction is thoroughly and completely negative.

Do you enjoy PF2? What about it do you like? I need to find something that sparks my creativity and interest.

ewfisher99
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:16 am

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by ewfisher99 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:39 am

Different strokes for different folks. I personally find Pathfinder 2's Lost Omens setting interesting and like how Pathfinder 2e is a bit more complex than 5e while still not being as complex as PF1 or 3.5.
This is Evan.

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:04 am

To be fair, P1 and P2 have the same setting -- P2 is a couple of years after P1.

There's a lot about P2 that is confusing to me. There's no must have gear. There's no always have spells. I'm still learning the ropes of characters.

I do like the action system. it flows nicely. i have some character builds that seem to work, but i'm sure i'll look back on them in 6mo and be pretty sure they suck.

P2 is different enough from P1 that P1 knowledge doesn't really help guide you much.

I have fun. I hope you'll come out and join us. I think you may like the system.
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

Chilon
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:09 am

Evan,

Can you be more specific, please? Ideally, I'm looking for recommendations to read ability X on page Y. I want to enjoy 2e, and am sure I will eventually, I'm just hoping for a treasure map to help me find the goodies faster.

Mike,

Can you give an example/story of a round or combat that shows the flow? For example, I've heard movement is more important. Also, shields look next to worthless to me--is that accuratel?

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:38 am

Shields will get you AC if you raise them. But shields do seem to crumple after a good hit. They seem kind of disposable. In that regard, kind of realistic. They'll get you some deflection, but if they're taking a straight on hit, they lose utility. if you use one, prepare to draw another weapon if you can pull it off.

Combat wise, move is important. drawing weapons is a pain. try to have them in hand before the fight starts. there's some gm variation, but unless it's an ambush while travelling or something similar, i allow weapons to be in hand.

on my paladin, i've done a lot of stride - strike - raise shield. followed by strike - strike-4 - raise shield. my paladin is fast though. if you've a 20' move, you'll be stride - stride - strike if you're lucky. fighters have double slice which is 2 action, but gets 2 attacks at the same multiple attack penalty. that's pretty potent if strike - doubleslice. rangers have something similar with their hunted prey.

mages do a lot of stride - verbal - somantic for two action spells. same with clerics. getting that 3 action heal out does take a lot of opportunity.

where this starts sucking is two weapon types with sheathed weapons. draw - draw - stride(?). ya, that's a lot of suck.
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

wingnut20x6
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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:37 pm

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by wingnut20x6 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:28 pm

Chilon wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:09 am

Can you give an example/story of a round or combat that shows the flow? For example, I've heard movement is more important. Also, shields look next to worthless to me--is that accuratel?
There are different, more sturdy shields eventually. The correct, and now general consensus, is PF2 hits like a truck, both monsters>PCs, and PCs>monsters. So, scenario 1, your party was well equipped to handle heals (basically, a cleric, honestly). Then you could have a party make-up with less than optimized healing; with some good teamwork, do-able, but my fighter may want a couple of shields in his backpack... 1g to knock some damage off that big hit may suddenly be worth it. Conversely, say your AC is 18. Monster rolls a 28; you just got critically hit. Had you raised a shield? Monster still would have hit your AC of 19, but you just took away the crit, and mitigated some of the damage of of the regular hit. For me, that's 1 action and 1g (as the shield may potentially break completely, yes) well spent. Here's a fun one.... put a level 2 dedication on your fighter to get the Shield cantrip on pretty much any martial in the game, super great 3rd action in a round. You can even raise your normal shield, then cast it. Use the "shield block" from the cantrip first, no damage to your equipment...

Movement is key now, depending on set up. Say you are the fighter above, a monster jumps down and lands next to you. You start your turn, a well placed swing at the highest bonus available to PCs does great damage to it... you raise your shield to be ready for retaliation, and.... do you take another swing at -5? Or, do you move 20 feet back. If your party is still behind you, AOOs are far more rare now, so next turn, baddie must waste an action striding up to you. Don't give him the option of having all 3 actions
Or just flat out move into flank w/out quite as much worry. Flanking now increases your chance to crit!
Andy B
-----
Wings, Sharpshooter Sld 2 (SF)
Flames, Sld 1/Sol 1 (SF)
Twitch, Technomaner 2 (SF)

Elirion Barbarian 8 (Core)
Gustavo Paladin 3 (Core)
Diego Cleric 2 (Core)
Tree-trunk Barbarian 1/Cleric 1 (Core)

Sin-La Unchained Monk 6
No Na Me Unchained Barbarian 2/Mutation Warrior 2
Ashe Ninja 2
Shawn Empiricist 2

Chilon
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:58 pm

Is Raising a Shield really the best use of that third action? I haven't gotten deep into the mechanics yet, but it seems like the opportunity cost of that action would be very unfavorable.

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:36 pm

A third attack is gonna be at -8 to -10. Your usually fishing for a crit at that point.
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

Chilon
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:50 pm

But aren't you also giving up damage on the other attacks by using a one-handed weapon instead of two-? And making the villain miss 5% of the time isn't much different from fishing for a 5% crit.

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:27 pm

two handed weapons are generally going to do more damage.

now, whether you want that shield is another question whose answer varies based on the particulars of what you're fighting.
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

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