Clarification

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Minous
Venture Agent
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 1:39 pm

Clarification

Post by Minous » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:27 am

FYI you guys might want to take a closer look at how charge is worded. It does not state that you must charge in a straight line, nor does it say that you cannot charge thru difficult terrain.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
What it does say is that you must move directly towards the target, and that your movement cannot be hindered. In the case of tonight's game, black tentacles didn't hamper Cefn's movement, and thus where not difficult terrain for him. Also given that all three squares in front of the enemy where equidistant any of the three squares where valid charge end points. I then must take the most direct route to that square, whether you take the diagonal at the beginning or end of the of the movement it doesn't matter since either path is the most direct path to the charge target square.

PS Animal Focus does not call it out, but Feral Focus is called out as a polymorph affect. The key wording is on page 211 of the CRB:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
* Goliath Ftr 13
* Minous Rog 11
* Aspen Frost Wit 11
* Cefn Bbn 8/Hun 1 9
* Zat'nik'tel Rog 9
* Suar Clr 8
* Andromeda Xandros Rog 7
* Domora Sum 7
* Lilly Rgr 5
* Jack Took Rog 4
* Chameleon Vig 4
* Linna Arc 3
* Terra Kin 2
* Melvin - CORE Sor 10
* Randir - CORE Rog 8
* Xindra - CORE Rog 7
* Sung - CORE Brd 6
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* Zen - CORE Mnk 1

NotDave
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:04 am

Re: Clarification

Post by NotDave » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:40 am

Charge must be in a straight line (that's what "directly toward" means). Plus, look at Ride by Attack, which states "...continuing the straight line of the charge". A straight line is defined as the shortest path between 2 points. Thus, you are correct that as long as the distance (i.e., squares) between your starting point and attack spot are the same number of squares you can make that first diagonal (or third, fifth, etc.) at the beginning, end, or whenever. Likewise, it specifically DOES state you can't charge through or in difficult terrain.

For difficult terrain, it will vary by GM since the FOM spell is vague, and it would depend on what is causing the difficult terrain. Magical effects of course would be negated by FOM (so yes FOM stops the difficult terrain created by Black Tentacles), as would certain other forms such as deep water, mushy ground, etc. But other forms, such as large concrete obstacles, going uphill, crowds of people, could not be bypassed with FOM. But, like I said, the spell is vague, so YMMV.

As an aside, I hadn't noticed the part about charging with obstacles in the way. Numerous times I've seen people acrobatics over obstacles while charging, so I guess that's a no-no.

Also, an interesting point of FOM. It states you cannot be grappled and auto succeed in escape attempts. That means if FOM is put on you after you've been grappled (or entangled) you escape on your turn as long as you make the escape attempt (or on the grappler's turn when it tries to maintain the grapple).
Franklin 15
Tiresias 13
Ngeliani, Sing 11
Kawido, Garza, Gillian, Taltos, Kieren 9
Vanya, Raphael 8
Ankov, Gallibor7
Diddi 6
Someone short, Cecilia 5
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Minous
Venture Agent
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Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: Clarification

Post by Minous » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:44 am

straight line != "directly towards", in pathfinder spells that use a direct line must go x squares, diagonal then X squares again, as "straight line" has been ruled. Directly towards may or may not have to follow that rule, see pic for the differences.

Again, it does not state that you cannot charge thru difficult terrain, what it does state is that you cannot charge thru any square that impedes movement. It then provides several examples of things that would normally impede movement, If you can negate the impediment (druids woodland stride as an example, or FOM) you can charge thru that square even though it is "difficult terrain" because your movement is not impeded. The wording on these are subtly different but key.
* Goliath Ftr 13
* Minous Rog 11
* Aspen Frost Wit 11
* Cefn Bbn 8/Hun 1 9
* Zat'nik'tel Rog 9
* Suar Clr 8
* Andromeda Xandros Rog 7
* Domora Sum 7
* Lilly Rgr 5
* Jack Took Rog 4
* Chameleon Vig 4
* Linna Arc 3
* Terra Kin 2
* Melvin - CORE Sor 10
* Randir - CORE Rog 8
* Xindra - CORE Rog 7
* Sung - CORE Brd 6
* Sinstra - CORE Clr 3
* Zen - CORE Mnk 1

GinoA
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Re: Clarification

Post by GinoA » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:42 am

Minous wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:27 am
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
This sentence defines the movement as a line.

Regardless, my ruling was that said line passed through a section of wall, and therefore charge was blocked.

EDIT: I'm interpreting "any line" to be any line from any corner of your square to any corner of the square you attack from. Cefn was at C. He could charge and attack from the right X, at 40'. He couldn't do so at the left X, since it's 45'. The line shown would block either of those squares anyway. A center-to-center line to the right X would still go through the wall.

2nd EDIT: As I look at this picture, the <redacted> might have been one square to the East. It wouldn't matter though. The charge lanes are the same.

Image

NotDave
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:04 am

Re: Clarification

Post by NotDave » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:08 pm

Here's an interesting take on charge written by Sean Reynolds. Basically, he says charge shouldn't be to move in a straight line to the closest square, but to move in a straight line, and you attack from the first square along that line from which you can make a legal attack.
Franklin 15
Tiresias 13
Ngeliani, Sing 11
Kawido, Garza, Gillian, Taltos, Kieren 9
Vanya, Raphael 8
Ankov, Gallibor7
Diddi 6
Someone short, Cecilia 5
N'Tunga, Valmont, Kin Ryu 4
Tovrik, Deandra 9
Kormack 8
Tirrin 5
Fenris 4
Muerte 3

brutesquad07
Posts: 526
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Re: Clarification

Post by brutesquad07 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:12 pm

Wasn't there, so I don't know exactly who was doing what to cause a protest. I have had this argument with numerous people over the years though so here is what I know to be true about charge.

Hampered Movement Pg 170: You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement. (Note see difficult terrain below)

Fatigued Page 171: A fatigued character can’t run or charge

Limited to one action in a round pg 183: May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round.

Difficult Terrain 193: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can’t run or charge
across difficult terrain.

Charge pg 198: Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is
occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge. If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to
taking only a standard action on your turn.


"If any line from your starting space to the ending space" is the issue. I don't care if you have the movement to make a bending line around to the opponent. If I draw a line (2 points-starting point and opponent) if there is something in the way, you are not getting a charge.

If anything slows your movement again you aren't getting a charge. Just be aware that there are several terrains that allow a DC 10 Acrobatics check to not lose your charge (called out precisely) Uneven Floors (pg 411), Hewn Stone Floors (412), Ice Sheet (430) to name a few.
Andy
Regular:
Vent. Capt. Duerdie Cleric 13, Bek Pal 4/Ftr 3/St Dfndr 2, Zendar Transmuter 11, Koyne Fighter 4/Thug 3, Godfried Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2, Hasan Swashbuckler (Whirling Dervish) 5, Duke Bard (Arcane Healer) 6, Sanchyn Ryu Unchnd Monk 3, Clarissa Cleric 2, Kaddock (Shoanti Barbarian) 2, Kaylor Paladin 1
Core:
Daerius Rogue 10, Zenizar Diviner 2, Da-ven Copenhagen Fighter 2, Byron De Straud Fighter 7, Dawn Cleric 2

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