Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

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Minous
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Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 1:39 pm

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Minous » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:56 pm

Chilon wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:50 pm
But aren't you also giving up damage on the other attacks by using a one-handed weapon instead of two-? And making the villain miss 5% of the time isn't much different from fishing for a 5% crit.
A 5% crit thing is a thing of the past. You need either a nat 20 OR AC +10. Attacking a creature with AC 13, You have a +6 attack, roll a 17 (total of 23), that is a crit. (AC+10). Also shields can be used as a form of what used to be called DR.
* Goliath Ftr 13
* Minous Rog 11
* Aspen Frost Wit 11
* Cefn Bbn 8/Hun 1 9
* Zat'nik'tel Rog 9
* Suar Clr 8
* Andromeda Xandros Rog 7
* Domora Sum 7
* Lilly Rgr 5
* Jack Took Rog 4
* Chameleon Vig 4
* Linna Arc 3
* Terra Kin 2
* Melvin - CORE Sor 10
* Randir - CORE Rog 8
* Xindra - CORE Rog 7
* Sung - CORE Brd 6
* Sinstra - CORE Clr 3
* Zen - CORE Mnk 1

Chilon
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:36 am

A +1 AC bonus still reduces successful hits by 5%. There is still a 5% chance of rolling 20. Unless, I misunderstood Mike, those are the parameters in his post: raising a buckler vs. attacking when only a 20 succeeds.

It looks like that DR ability requires a feat AND destroys the shield, so we are back to an expensive opportunity cost.

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:16 am

Bucklers are +1, wooden and steel shields are +2, Tower shields are +2/+4 (with take cover while raised).

Raise shield action:
RAISE A SHIELD [one-action]
Requirements You are wielding a shield.
You position your shield to protect yourself. When you have
Raised a Shield, you gain its listed circumstance bonus to AC.
Your shield remains raised until the start of your next turn.


Fighters can do some mischief with shields, starting with:
REACTIVE SHIELD [reaction] FEAT 1
FIGHTER
Trigger An enemy hits you with a melee Strike.
Requirements You are wielding a shield.
You can snap your shield into place just as you would take a blow, avoiding the hit at the
last second. You immediately use the Raise a Shield action and gain your shield’s bonus to
AC. The circumstance bonus from the shield applies to your AC when you’re determining
the outcome of the triggering attack.
Some other classes (champions frex) have shield tricks as well.

In general, to get the shield damage speed bump, you need this feat:
General:
SHIELD BLOCK[reaction] FEAT 1
GENERAL
Trigger While you have your shield raised, you would take
damage from a physical attack.
You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield
prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the
shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining
damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield

But you don't need that feat to get the AC. But ya, any decent his is going to do some bad things to a shield pretty quickly if you're using shield block.

Bucklers are in general really "meh" on the utility scale. A steel shield though is kind of nice.
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

Chilon
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:31 am

mikem91 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:16 am
Bucklers are in general really "meh" on the utility scale. A steel shield though is kind of nice.
I've actually been wondering whether bucklers might not be the best shields now. I haven't been able to find anything about a penalty for using a two-handed weapon while wearing a buckler. Also, it looks like they might be considerably cheaper to make adamantine, if going for a shield block.

Minous
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Minous » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:41 pm

I'll also note that 7 of the 12 classes get shield block feat for free (or as part of the shield cantrip)
* Goliath Ftr 13
* Minous Rog 11
* Aspen Frost Wit 11
* Cefn Bbn 8/Hun 1 9
* Zat'nik'tel Rog 9
* Suar Clr 8
* Andromeda Xandros Rog 7
* Domora Sum 7
* Lilly Rgr 5
* Jack Took Rog 4
* Chameleon Vig 4
* Linna Arc 3
* Terra Kin 2
* Melvin - CORE Sor 10
* Randir - CORE Rog 8
* Xindra - CORE Rog 7
* Sung - CORE Brd 6
* Sinstra - CORE Clr 3
* Zen - CORE Mnk 1

Chilon
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:09 pm

Minous wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:41 pm
I'll also note that 7 of the 12 classes get shield block feat for free (or as part of the shield cantrip)
That is nice. Hadn't noticed that part yet.

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mikem91
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Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by mikem91 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:10 pm

buckler doesn't do squat unless you have a free hand.

Buckler: This very small shield is a favorite of duelists
and quick, lightly armored warriors. It’s typically made of
steel and strapped to your forearm. You can Raise a Shield
with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or
are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.

Carrying and Using Items
A character typically has two hands, allowing them to hold
an item in each hand or a single two‑handed item using
both hands. Drawing or changing how you’re carrying an
item usually requires you to use an Interact action (though
to drop an item, you use the Release action instead).
Table 6–2: Changing Equipment on page 273 lists some
ways that you might change the items you’re holding or
carrying, and the number of hands you need to do so.
Many ways of using items require you to spend
multiple actions. For example, drinking a potion stowed in
your belt pouch requires using an Interact action to draw
it and then using a second action to drink it as described in
its Activate entry (page 532)

you're going to get swamped in action costs if you start trying to use a 2h weapon with a buckler. your release is a free action, but regripping your weapon to strike isn't a free action. you could pull this off with a bow arguably though.

round 1: strike - strike-5 - (release) - raise shield
round 2+: grip (interact) - strike - (release) - raise shield
~~~
Mike 86997 ****

Code: Select all

Astrid Gaetki/Cleric2            Shiobhan Mac Lir/Bard2           Paul Meier/Ranger1
Gemma Wintrish/Wizard1
~~
Ragnar/Ftr1-Thf3                 Ursion Thrune/Cleric 14          Serit/Barbarian 11
Parashylara Snowspeaker/Bard 12  Aspexia Blakros/Arcanist 13      Evan Winterburn/Ranger 12  
Akari Yuka/Swashbuckler 9        Vuokko Lumimyrski/Witch 11       Isabeau Gaughan/Paladin 10       
Sofia Cisneros/Cleric 10         Sabriel Stonebrow/CORE Cleric 10 Adrian Delrosa/Wizard 8
Thrain Wolfpelt/CORE Fighter 2   Mitsuzuri Kaeda/Samurai 6        Amestri al-Xemestra/CORE Cleric 2
Berazni Morradi/Psychic 2        Ranna Ingvarsdottir/Bard 10      Jeshki Blackmantle/Arcanist 6
Dagmara Trzetrzelewska/Cleric 4  Yumiko Takada/Slayer 5
(as of 20190927)

Chilon
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 7:50 pm
Location: Solon, OH

Re: Please Tell Me (How) I'm Wrong

Post by Chilon » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:53 pm

I was thinking along the lines of a 1+ weapon. Usually, I would just wield it two-handed, but with the option of going one-handed plus the buckler.

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